Comments on: Newsflash: people dead in Iraq! http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/ Australian Libertarian Society Blog Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:45:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: OK, I admit it: I’m anti-American. « Thoughts on Freedom http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-44428 Sun, 02 Mar 2008 14:26:46 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-44428 [...] ever since that bad man John Humphreys pointed out we should apply the same cost-benefit analysis to foreign policy as we do for domestic policy, [...]

]]> By: John Humphreys http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-835 Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:12:53 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-835 Touche. :) But I didn’t have to pay more tax to keep Saddam in power.

]]> By: terje (say tay-a) http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-813 Wed, 25 Oct 2006 05:37:44 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-813

What are these supposed huge costs to australian taxpayers of having Saddam in power for a few more years. He was there for the entire 90s and somehow I still managed to eat breakfast and play tennis. He didn’t even give me cancer!

By that measure the cost of the war has been pretty low also. Unless because we invaded Iraq you have had to cancel breakfast and tennis or you have come down with cancer.

]]> By: John Humphreys http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-803 Tue, 24 Oct 2006 12:09:09 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-803 I ignored the long term negative of leaving Saddam in power? I assumed that having him in power would increase the costs of terrorism by 90%, and you call that “ignoring” the effects?

What are these supposed huge costs to australian taxpayers of having Saddam in power for a few more years. He was there for the entire 90s and somehow I still managed to eat breakfast and play tennis. He didn’t even give me cancer!

No half-educated person actually thought that invading Iraq would turn the middle east into a bastion of peace and hippy hand-holding democracy festivals. But even if there were additional externalities fixed by the invasion (in addition to the hugely over-estimated benefits that you seem happy to accept even though they are patently untrue), then it still baffles the rational mind that they could come anywhere near the size of the costs.

As most libertarians will warn you, vague references to unsubstatiatable externalities is the last refuge of the pro-government taxeaters.

And the idea that you can pick the good parts (depose Saddam) and leave out the bad parts (everything that happened next) also is the tired and silly assertion of the socialist. If there seriously was a political option of:

a) I’ll take all the good things government can do, but please leave all the bad stuff out…

… then we could all be socialists! But (and it’s embarassing I have to explain this to libertarians) the government isn’t perfectly benevolent or brilliant. Government programs always have unforseen consequences. They always go wrong somehow. Somebody always adds their own agenda. Their costs always increase. There is inevitably a change of government, or a change of plan, that undermines the original “pure” plan.

If you think the choice is between a perfect government and government inaction, then of course you will choose your perfect government. But you’re views are irrelevant to reality.

]]> By: Dane Hayden http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-797 Tue, 24 Oct 2006 05:07:28 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-797 John, broadly speaking I agree with your point that government action should be subject to rational analysis, and that we (Aus taxpayers) shouldn’t pay to improve the living standards of Iraqis. However, your analysis seems to omit the long term negative effects of leaving Saddam in power*. Like Terje said, it was a strategic move by the Americans. Saddam’s rule had the potential to create further discontent in the region, leading to negative externalities for the west.

*I’m only arguing that it was right to depose Saddam. What happened since then is a mess.

]]> By: terje (say tay-a) http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-791 Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:39:10 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-791 Matt,

Dismantling the army was edict 2 put out by the CPA. Edict 1 was debathification. This would seem to have been a mistake also as many teachers, doctors etc were members in name only, predominately to access higher wages. The party should have been disbanded but past members should not have been automatically excluded from government jobs. Edict 1 and edict 2 lowered the capacity of the government to deliver services and at the same time created a body of hostility towards the CPA and the Americans in general. It is telling that the bombings by the insurgents started two days after edict 2.

I acknowlege that this is easy to state in hindsight. I certainly had nothing to offer of use at the time as to how they might win the peace more effectively. It does seem to me that there have been some belated acknowledgement of these mistakes and attempts to unscramble the egg in as much as this is possible.

Regards,
Terje.

]]> By: Michael Sutcliffe http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-790 Mon, 23 Oct 2006 08:24:01 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-790 An interesting article comparing Iraq with the 1956 Hungarian uprising, with respect to external (particularly American) military intervention:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/1023/p06s01-woeu.html

One thought that comes to mind is that the article doesn’t address cultural differences between Iraqis and Hungarians. The thirst for liberal democracy is greater in some cultures than in others!

]]> By: Matt http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-789 Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:59:46 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-789 In hindsight, dismantling of the army may be seen as one of the biggest mistakes made. It is an interesting topic as the Americans at the end of WW2 “dealt with” the wartime leaders and promoted the junior officers in Japan and in Germany they engaged in denazification. However due to the the beginning of the Cold War had to ensure that West Germany still had a viable army. In Iraq, they seemed to ignore these lessons, however in their defence, the big difference in Iraq is the Sunni/Shiite divide.

Matt

]]> By: terje (say tay-a) http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-788 Mon, 23 Oct 2006 06:37:44 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-788 Matt,

I was refering primarily to the army.

Regards,
Terje.

]]> By: Matt http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-787 Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:21:23 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/10/21/newsflash-people-dead-in-iraq/#comment-787 “However if the Americans had limited themselves to toppling Saddam and handing power back to the locals without dismantling the institutions or trying to guarantee a transition to democracy they might have been able to depart quickly without making too much of a mess.”

Terje, with all due respect, you strike me as the type of guy who does not understand the horrors of some of these regimes. Have you ever been to Rwanda, to Birkinau, visited the WTC site, have you spoken to people who saw what Saddam did? You cannot “model” freedom from the security of your comfy home in Australia!

Anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of what has gone on in Iraq would understand that apart from the army and religion, there were no effectively operating civil institutions in Iraq. I’m happy to put you in touch with people who have worked in Iraq if that will help with your “analysis.”

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