Comments on: The rise and fall of social democracy http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/ Australian Libertarian Society Blog Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:45:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.com/ By: conrad http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1059 Wed, 15 Nov 2006 03:40:08 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1059 As an individual, there arn’t any threshold changes for anything apart from a few things like having children and looking after an invalid older relative (very CHinese) which only the most die-hard libertarians would argue about (especially because you are going to be paying for that invalid relative, and not the government). Not being a tax lawyer, I could be wrong on that, as I didn’t investigate things that were not on the tax forms. I figured 6 minutes of my time to fill in the form put a smile on my face compared with thinking about how long the Australian version takes and what ridiculous deductions there are (even the French forms are simpler — no jokes). There also isn’t a separate tax system for expats/non-expats (everyone pays the same).

The is a little bit of mess in the middle where you go onto a scale which takes a very slightly higher percentage than the maximum percentage you can pay. When you reach the maximum percentage because you are paying the slightly higher rate, it is capped at that rate (i.e, 16%). This means that the percentage of tax you pay slightly increases up to a certain amount, and then it is flat. I can’t remember the numbers as I was lucky enough to get to the 16% rate, which means you don’t need to worry about it. You just save 16% of your money and give it to the government at the end of the year.

I don’t know why they have this funny intermediate scale, since it affects only a small proportion of the population. At a guess it is just a historical left-over.

]]> By: yobbo http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1051 Tue, 14 Nov 2006 13:06:26 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1051 Yes that is the impression I was under too. I’m guessing most expats choose the 16% because they are mostly salaried workers who would have nothing to deduct anyway.

]]> By: terje (say tay-a) http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1049 Tue, 14 Nov 2006 10:08:18 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1049 I tought the 16% was an alternate flat tax and you could choose either the flat 16% without deductions or else the progressive system with deductions.

]]> By: yobbo http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1047 Tue, 14 Nov 2006 08:52:26 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1047 Conrad: I think they have a different tax system for expats, and the 16% figure doesn’t allow deductions or something. I’m not entirely sure about that though.

]]> By: terje (say tay-a) http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1045 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 21:56:41 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1045 I agree with John that you can cut taxes and privatise at the same time as the Hawke government did. However privatisation creates lots of debate, pisses off a lot of people and costs the government concerned more votes.

As for privatising water and electricity etc I agree. However most of these are still very secondary to tax cuts.

]]> By: conrad http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1044 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 20:57:37 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1044 I agree with you after living in HK yobbo (I wish everyone would live there for a while and see for themselves the benefits of not giving middle-class people handouts), Except that the maximum tax rate is 16%, not 19% (I’m not sure where that 19% comes from — the maximum it says on the tax form you can pay is 16% — I know, I payed it). The other thing you should realize is that the majority of the population doesn’t pay any tax at all, and in fact all the linear increase between 0% and 16% is in fact catching such a small part of the population you may as well just believe it to be 16% flat. They should just can the intermediate stuff, I’m sure no-one would complain too much.

Also, as far as I am aware, the rate of unemployment benefits has gone down, although the actual conversion is misleading because a) 45%(?) of the population lives in public housing which is very cheap (and very poor quality — although it doesn’t seem to worry people); and b) because there is no minimum wage, no tax for poor people, and few business restrictions, lots of people set up little business selling things like food extremely cheaply (cheaper than you could buy/make it yourself), so the cost of life is less.

I think the other thing HK shows you is that the idea of “social democracy” is a bit of a farce in many countries — it isn’t helping poor people at all. Its just a corrupt system for recycling money amongst people that already have enough.

]]> By: yobbo http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1042 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:10:21 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1042 Also I should point out that “Liberal Democracy” as we see it also comes with a Liberal attitude to vice and the like, something which Hong Kong has never really had.

I think the only real example of “Liberal Democracy” as we describe it was the US pre-WWI.

]]> By: yobbo http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1041 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 15:06:46 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1041 Well, Hong Kong has all the markers of a social democracy – progressive taxation, public health care, public schooling and unemployment benefits. According to this article unemployment benefits in Hong Kong are about $5000 HKD per month, which is basically identical to what you get in Australia.

It is a lot harder to get it though.

Basically Hong Kong is proof that social democracy is possible even when combined with a low tax regime. Government is 22% of GDP vs 40% in most other countries.

]]> By: John Humphreys http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1040 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 14:44:06 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1040 Yobbo — I would suggest that Hong Kong is one of the few places left that still deserves to be called “liberal democracy” instead of “social democracy”.

If it is a choice, I also would pick tax cuts before further privatisations. But it’s not a choice. So I pick both. And with regards to privatisations, I still support the idea of giving away some public assets: the ABC is a perfect example, if it really is “our ABC” then give it to me. This also highlights that we’re not selling off the silverware to live beyond our means, but because we think the rightful owners are free individuals.

Yes Justin — this was my post. If you look at the front page of the blog (instead of the post page) then it tells you the author.

]]> By: David Leyonhjelm http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1038 Mon, 13 Nov 2006 10:02:12 +0000 http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2006/11/13/the-rise-and-fall-of-social-democracy/#comment-1038 “why not just list all the things we won’t privatise federally? i.e. defence”

I could handle that too, although my list might be slightly longer. But the point is valid.

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