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	<title>Comments on: France: paradox of the efficient socialist</title>
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	<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/</link>
	<description>Australian Libertarian Society Blog</description>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12338</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 00:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12338</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d better not mention Puerto Rico, then, which is still classed as a colony, and was taken from Spain in the war of 1898. The Cubans had been rebelling for years, and so were not as grateful as the Yanks had been led to expect, especially when the Americans then did not live up to their own statements, and decided to stay to &#039;civilise&#039; the place. The Platt amendment meant that the Cubans could have any government they chose, so long as that was alright with the Americans. As a bonus to the war, the americans got The Philipines, and promptly put down a native uprising against the spanish so they could Christianise the place. They eventually gave them independence, but did they have a right to them in the first place?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d better not mention Puerto Rico, then, which is still classed as a colony, and was taken from Spain in the war of 1898. The Cubans had been rebelling for years, and so were not as grateful as the Yanks had been led to expect, especially when the Americans then did not live up to their own statements, and decided to stay to &#8216;civilise&#8217; the place. The Platt amendment meant that the Cubans could have any government they chose, so long as that was alright with the Americans. As a bonus to the war, the americans got The Philipines, and promptly put down a native uprising against the spanish so they could Christianise the place. They eventually gave them independence, but did they have a right to them in the first place?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12284</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Halfweeg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 07:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12284</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Something that is voluntary is not an Empire.  Empires have autocratic control of their territories, they don&#039;t involve the conquered lands voting in their overlords in free and fair elections.

Not many countries volunteered their soveriegnty to the British Empire, nor the Russian or German Empires, or even the Austro-Hungarian ones, or the Ottoman, or the Mongol.  All of these empires were created through force of arms and involved denial of self-determination of the conquered peoples.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Something that is voluntary is not an Empire.  Empires have autocratic control of their territories, they don&#8217;t involve the conquered lands voting in their overlords in free and fair elections.</p>
<p>Not many countries volunteered their soveriegnty to the British Empire, nor the Russian or German Empires, or even the Austro-Hungarian ones, or the Ottoman, or the Mongol.  All of these empires were created through force of arms and involved denial of self-determination of the conquered peoples.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12280</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 07:11:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12280</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I got my info from the Von-Mises blog. They must have been exaggerating, though there are plenty of Americans who say that the Union is an empire.
And the European Union, with new regulations from Brussels, is that an empire?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I got my info from the Von-Mises blog. They must have been exaggerating, though there are plenty of Americans who say that the Union is an empire.<br />
And the European Union, with new regulations from Brussels, is that an empire?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12278</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Halfweeg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 06:56:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[According to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.freestateproject.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Free State Project&lt;/a&gt;, all they want is to create a significant enough minority in New Hampshire to have an influence over state politics and eventually tighten up the state&#039;s constitution to enforce small government.  They do not endorse secession.

As far as I aware, there is no state wide secessionist movement, although two towns did consider seceding from the state (not the nation) over a state wide property tax.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the <a href="http://www.freestateproject.org/" rel="nofollow">Free State Project</a>, all they want is to create a significant enough minority in New Hampshire to have an influence over state politics and eventually tighten up the state&#8217;s constitution to enforce small government.  They do not endorse secession.</p>
<p>As far as I aware, there is no state wide secessionist movement, although two towns did consider seceding from the state (not the nation) over a state wide property tax.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12259</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 May 2007 00:54:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whilst they chose not to outrightly rule Panama, it is still imperialistic, and they have often behaved in ways that they would abhor, if other nations treated them that way. Cuban anti-Yankeeism isn&#039;t just a recent idea.
And none of this addresses the issue that New Hampshire has a state-wide petition to secede from the Union. They seem to think that Washington is behaving too much like a dictator for their piece of mind. They think Washington is imperial. They, who live there, would know best, wouldn&#039;t they?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst they chose not to outrightly rule Panama, it is still imperialistic, and they have often behaved in ways that they would abhor, if other nations treated them that way. Cuban anti-Yankeeism isn&#8217;t just a recent idea.<br />
And none of this addresses the issue that New Hampshire has a state-wide petition to secede from the Union. They seem to think that Washington is behaving too much like a dictator for their piece of mind. They think Washington is imperial. They, who live there, would know best, wouldn&#8217;t they?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12239</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Halfweeg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 16:05:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12239</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[American citizens settled and displaced native populations in Mexican held territory, either declared their independence as in Texas and California or did not seek it formally as in Utah.  Mexico did not accept Texas&#039;s independence and when Texas was voluntarily annexed by the US, declared war.  They lost and America claimed all Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande, which was agreed by Mexico.  Mexico&#039;s imperial ambitions in their north west colonies (they were considered colonies, inherited from Spain) were thwarted because of a failed war of aggression against the US over the voluntary admission of Texas (a recognised independent nation) into the Union.  Californians took advantage of Mexico&#039;s weakness and declared independance, short lived as they were occupied by US forces to prevent the Mexicans reclaiming them.  

Although there was meddling in Mexico&#039;s affairs, the US was merely enforcing the wishes of the American and European settlers in Mexico&#039;s north west colonies who did not want to be part of a corrupt Mexican regime but wanted self-determination within the Union.  That is not an imperial action.

As far as Latin America is concerned, the Monroe Doctrine was a pretty comprehensive statement of opposition to colonialism in the Americas.  In Panama, the US has a mixed history, one of militarily suppressing independence at the invitation of the Columbian government, then supporting Panamanian independence when it looked like local administration were going to agree to their treaty demands for the proposed Panama canal.  Truman didn&#039;t connive anyone, Panama gained independence while Roosevelt was in power in 1903.  Panama were not entirely a client state, but neither were they completely independent.  The US never claimed soveriegnty over Panama (just the canal zone), only extracted a one-sided treaty.  Not nice, but not entirely imperial.  This is probably the most imperial action that the US ever conducted.  Still doesn&#039;t make them an empire though, especially not today since they gave up the canal and their military bases in 1999.

The worst thing the US government did in my opinion was the invasion of the Confederacy in 1861.  That might be considered an imperial action, since the Southerners clearly didn&#039;t want to be part of the Union any longer.  However under international conventions, that was a civil war, as the Confederacy gained no formal independence.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>American citizens settled and displaced native populations in Mexican held territory, either declared their independence as in Texas and California or did not seek it formally as in Utah.  Mexico did not accept Texas&#8217;s independence and when Texas was voluntarily annexed by the US, declared war.  They lost and America claimed all Mexican territory north of the Rio Grande, which was agreed by Mexico.  Mexico&#8217;s imperial ambitions in their north west colonies (they were considered colonies, inherited from Spain) were thwarted because of a failed war of aggression against the US over the voluntary admission of Texas (a recognised independent nation) into the Union.  Californians took advantage of Mexico&#8217;s weakness and declared independance, short lived as they were occupied by US forces to prevent the Mexicans reclaiming them.  </p>
<p>Although there was meddling in Mexico&#8217;s affairs, the US was merely enforcing the wishes of the American and European settlers in Mexico&#8217;s north west colonies who did not want to be part of a corrupt Mexican regime but wanted self-determination within the Union.  That is not an imperial action.</p>
<p>As far as Latin America is concerned, the Monroe Doctrine was a pretty comprehensive statement of opposition to colonialism in the Americas.  In Panama, the US has a mixed history, one of militarily suppressing independence at the invitation of the Columbian government, then supporting Panamanian independence when it looked like local administration were going to agree to their treaty demands for the proposed Panama canal.  Truman didn&#8217;t connive anyone, Panama gained independence while Roosevelt was in power in 1903.  Panama were not entirely a client state, but neither were they completely independent.  The US never claimed soveriegnty over Panama (just the canal zone), only extracted a one-sided treaty.  Not nice, but not entirely imperial.  This is probably the most imperial action that the US ever conducted.  Still doesn&#8217;t make them an empire though, especially not today since they gave up the canal and their military bases in 1999.</p>
<p>The worst thing the US government did in my opinion was the invasion of the Confederacy in 1861.  That might be considered an imperial action, since the Southerners clearly didn&#8217;t want to be part of the Union any longer.  However under international conventions, that was a civil war, as the Confederacy gained no formal independence.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12237</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 15:07:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12237</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When President Truman connived to have Panama secede from Columbia, that was a naked piece of Yankee aggression, which he was quite proud of! Panama would not be a nation without him!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When President Truman connived to have Panama secede from Columbia, that was a naked piece of Yankee aggression, which he was quite proud of! Panama would not be a nation without him!</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12234</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 14:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am still convinced that it was an imperious response, and how did the yanks get Western America? Pure expressions of gratitude from the Mexicans for all that the Yankers had done to Mexico over the years, was it?
And I notice you&#039;re ignoring Central America, and how the US has bullied the entire region over the last century. What else was &#039;Manifest Destiny&#039;, but an Imperial Charter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am still convinced that it was an imperious response, and how did the yanks get Western America? Pure expressions of gratitude from the Mexicans for all that the Yankers had done to Mexico over the years, was it?<br />
And I notice you&#8217;re ignoring Central America, and how the US has bullied the entire region over the last century. What else was &#8216;Manifest Destiny&#8217;, but an Imperial Charter?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Halfweeg</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12233</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brendan Halfweeg]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 14:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12233</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the 17 to 1 vote in favour of statehood vote in Hawaii in 1959 was falsely representative of the wish of Hawaiians from 70 years previous?  Hawaii entered voluntarily into the Union after a series of domestic political upheavals that involved settlers of American and European origin interfering in the government of their chosen home.  It was not sponsored or endorsed by the US government at the time and Clinton&#039;s apology in 1993 is no different than a theorhetical apology from the current German government to Russia for its involvement in the Bolshevik Revolution in returning Lenin to St Petersburg.  The apology has no legal meaning nonetheless, it is merely a gesture of goodwill.

Soveriegnty over Utah was exchanged from Mexico to the US at the end of the US-Mexican War in 1848, Utah was never formally independent. It can&#039;t have been too bad, because they actually tried to join in 1849 as the State of Deseret covering a land area much larger than present day Utah, but the US government were wary of admiting such a large state and were opposed to the policy of polygamy.  The Church of LDS formally renounced polygamy as a condition of admitance, but they still did it voluntarily.  They did not declare their independance from Mexico or from the US.  The military response to the LDS authorities was entirely a domestic response.  Not pretty perhaps, but not imperial in nature.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the 17 to 1 vote in favour of statehood vote in Hawaii in 1959 was falsely representative of the wish of Hawaiians from 70 years previous?  Hawaii entered voluntarily into the Union after a series of domestic political upheavals that involved settlers of American and European origin interfering in the government of their chosen home.  It was not sponsored or endorsed by the US government at the time and Clinton&#8217;s apology in 1993 is no different than a theorhetical apology from the current German government to Russia for its involvement in the Bolshevik Revolution in returning Lenin to St Petersburg.  The apology has no legal meaning nonetheless, it is merely a gesture of goodwill.</p>
<p>Soveriegnty over Utah was exchanged from Mexico to the US at the end of the US-Mexican War in 1848, Utah was never formally independent. It can&#8217;t have been too bad, because they actually tried to join in 1849 as the State of Deseret covering a land area much larger than present day Utah, but the US government were wary of admiting such a large state and were opposed to the policy of polygamy.  The Church of LDS formally renounced polygamy as a condition of admitance, but they still did it voluntarily.  They did not declare their independance from Mexico or from the US.  The military response to the LDS authorities was entirely a domestic response.  Not pretty perhaps, but not imperial in nature.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12228</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 May 2007 13:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/15/france-paradox-of-the-efficient-socialist/#comment-12228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Terje, maybe Australia, and Canada, and South Africa, should be called Empires! Though none of them has acted as bad as Usofa- we haven&#039;t yet sent the marines in to sort out those unruly Papuans! As for Utah and Hawai&#039;i &#039;voluntarily&#039; joining the union, that&#039;s not how they see it! In 1993, the Hawai&#039;ian government apologised for the coup that overthrew the monarchy! It took them 100 years, but they did it! And Utah might have decided that discretion is the better part of valour, but they originally emigrated to get away from other governments entirely! They set up a Theocracy, with &#039;Prophet&#039; Brigham Young as President for life, and they hoped to escape Usofa altogether!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Terje, maybe Australia, and Canada, and South Africa, should be called Empires! Though none of them has acted as bad as Usofa- we haven&#8217;t yet sent the marines in to sort out those unruly Papuans! As for Utah and Hawai&#8217;i &#8216;voluntarily&#8217; joining the union, that&#8217;s not how they see it! In 1993, the Hawai&#8217;ian government apologised for the coup that overthrew the monarchy! It took them 100 years, but they did it! And Utah might have decided that discretion is the better part of valour, but they originally emigrated to get away from other governments entirely! They set up a Theocracy, with &#8216;Prophet&#8217; Brigham Young as President for life, and they hoped to escape Usofa altogether!</p>
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