Comments on: Should Atheists be Evangelical…

By: Tim R

Tim R — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:36:01 +0000

Also, the underpinning of my libertarianism is due to a principle defined as “non-initiation of force”. As humans, we are the only animals that have the mental ability of choice. Choice is necessary for our survival and obviously a natural part of us. So I therefore think we need rights to protect our choices. The underlying principle that expresses these rights in one “equation” is “non-initiation of force”. ie: Any application of initiating force is a violation of human rights. And in our current society of democracy and governments, this rights protection is the job of the government. That’s why I get mad when paternalistic legislation is passed, I literally think it’s a crime, unnatural and can only have bad consequences.

So you can see, that atheism has very little to do with whether or not someone accepts this principle.

By: Tim R

Tim R — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 03:35:40 +0000

Arguments from authority are not logically correct so I apologise but I’m not concerned about Dr Rhine’s credentials. As far as I am concerned, it’s just his opinion or his experience that happened to be recorded.
I used the example to illustrate that the only supporting evidence I’ve seen for Cayce is anecdotal evidence.
I don’t know very much about Dr Rhine or Cayce but it took me a whole 10 sec to find a sceptical article about Cayce on the net.

Cayce said “1998 would be a pivotal moment in Earth’s affairs”. I don’t think you can link this to solar activity.

The placebo effect does exist, clinical trials have shown this. Approx 30% of people given a placebo will report some or a lot of improvement in medical symptoms. This “power of suggestion” is an interesting, largely unexplained phenomenon that you may be interested in. Investigating the causes of the placebo effect would be interesting and valuable scientific inquiry quite different to accepting anectodal evidence about mediums or psychics.

Incidentally, are you a fan of Nostradamus?

By: nicholas gray

nicholas gray — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 01:34:00 +0000

Tim, do you think Dr. Rhine is a good authority on psychic matters, or not? And will you keep a lookout tonight on ‘The great greenhouse warming swindle’, when the presenter will display a graph highlighting the year 1998, the very year Cayce said would be a peak of activity?

By: Tim R

Tim R — Thu, 12 Jul 2007 00:13:36 +0000

I’ll try again getting my comments up today.

Nicholas,
1) Masers were discovered in 1953 not 1958, and they are nothing like a death ray. Lasers are used in medical work.
2) Crystals are used in many things. Are you saying the power source for lasers was supposed to be called a “great crystal”. Where do you get that idea?
3) Obviously Cayce was wrong about China. Christianity is dropping in terms of percentage population. Atheism is rising, see Australian census for the last 20+ years.
4) Libertarians should know that Roosevelt’s deal actually worsened the US. I think Milton Friedman writes about this. Anyhow, Cayce said “good year”, not “road to recovery”
5) One anectode against another.
6) If psychics can be frequently wrong, what’s the point?
7) Naturapathy is different to psychic ability. And in the cases I’ve pointed out it wasn’t very good naturapathy.

Basically if people were more rational, the world would be a better place. Increased rationality leads to decreased need for authorities which for example means less suicide bombers.

By: nicholas gray

nicholas gray — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:41:27 +0000

I think we’ve answered the question.
Should Atheists be evangelists for atheism?
NO!!!
If I were converted to atheism, then the underpinnings of my libertarian beliefs, such as the Universe already being a place of karmic justice so we don’t need governments creating utopias, would be fatally wounded, and I would join another movement.
As libertarians, we should promote Liberty and Libertarianism.

By: Perry Ferguson

Perry Ferguson — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 01:45:50 +0000

Admittedly i have never heard of Cayce either. But it is a common placebo use when the patient associates the placebo with the body combatting the virus or whatever the problem maybe.

I am highly sceptic about such things as they seem to me to be just, dodgy.

However, i will go and read about him more.

The reason he hasnt been sued for malpractice? Probably because he deals with very desperate people, and desperate people will try anything. And hold the risk on their shoulders.

By: nicholas gray

nicholas gray — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 00:45:16 +0000

Perry,
You might be interested to know that Cayce was not above correcting his own prophecies, or updating them. He once said (in 1933) that L.A. would be hit by a big earthquake in three years time. A year later he said, when asked about this, ‘This will not now happen’. However, no-one asked him what had changed. L.A. was not hit by an earthquake that year.
As for you climate sceptics and deniers, the show on Thursday night has a fascinating graph, which shows that solar activity, which the presenter claims is the real driving force behind climate changes, peaked in the year 1998. This exactly matches one of the Cayce predictions, where 1998 was predicted to be a pivotal moment in the Earth’s affairs. So a scientist, who I presume has never heard of Edgar Cayce, confirms one of Cayce’s predictions.
As for his cures being placebos, how come people weren’t cured by the placebo of the day- the medicines which doctors give to them? If it’s all due to blind faith, why didn’t they work? And how come Cayce was never sued for malpractice by any of his patients?

By: Perry Ferguson

Perry Ferguson — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:48:25 +0000

Nicholas, everything that you just said proves nothing to me.

When these kinds of predictions are wrong, people just try to link the nearest events to them. “Some democrats thing it started America on the road to recovery”.

And those cures you are talking about just sound like associative placebo.

” I am wearing a red jumper today so it will be a good day.”
They were used all the time in medieval times and witchcraft.

By: nicholas gray

nicholas gray — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:20:19 +0000

1) The first working masers, forerunners to the laser, were developed and working in Bell labs in the year (wait for it) 1958.
2) The basic unit of a laser is a crystal. The power sources were supposed to be called Great crystals.
3) I am aware that he claimed that China would be a Christian country, but there was no date attached to the prophecy (“It is far off as men judge time.”)
4) In 1933, President Roosevelt came to office, and started the New Deal, and Democrats think it started America on the road to recovery.
5) Dr. Rhine is an interesting choice for a character reference. Do you accept Rhine’s other claims about proving clairvoyance? About psychokinetic gamblers? Do you regularly play with Zener cards? If not, why not? Do you know why the first book about Cayce (There is a River) was even published? Because Cayce was able to give a very accurate reading about the health of a relative of the publisher, and only because of that. I think that is a character reference.
6) Never heard of this case, but one or two failures wouldn’t shock me. Psychic talent is a human talent, which means it can sometimes be wrong.
7) All these names, like ‘Oil of smoke’, were either names of products that existed then, or were things which he told them how to make. As for ‘Laetrile’, I’ll look it up later.
I don’t know who the quote is from, but it doesn’t impress me.
And tim, as I keep saying, I have met and talked to two people who are only here because their mother took one of Cayce’s cures when medicine said that nothing could be done. That seems impressive to me.

By: Dead Soul

Dead Soul — Tue, 10 Jul 2007 07:19:01 +0000

Nicholas at 133:

The author of the The Omega Point is Frank Tipler. His arguments seem to draw from the notion put forward some earlier physicists that the universe can be understood as a great thought.

What is the universe doing? They can’t changing their mind every generation so don’t bother … .