“In early 1975, Carter was polling at 1% (he went on to win the Presidency).

“In early 1987, Dukakis was polling at 1% (he went on to win the Democratic nomination).

“In early 1991, Clinton was at 2% (he went on to win the Presidency).

“In the spring of 1999, John McCain was polling at 3% (he went on to win the NH primary).

“In early 2003, Joe Lieberman was leading the field for the Democratic presidential nomination (he failed to win any primary).”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/014005.html

Reminds me of a few libertarians, and also some ardent lefties from my past.

I encountered a comment recently Paul does seem to be a simple-minded fellow – at best naive and at worst stupid or arrogantly contrarian, to which I replied I think you are right, I have been thinking idiosyncratic and bloody minded.

His performance the other night has not changed my mind.

Details about it are here: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSSP30318820070315

1999 – U.S. president Bill Clinton eases decades-old economic sanctions against North Korea after Pyongyang pledges a moratorium on long-range missile tests. Relations between North and South Korea begin to improve under South Korea’s new “Sunshine Policy.”

2000 – President Clinton tells Congress that North Korea may be “seeking to develop or acquire the capability to enrich uranium.” Pyongyang publicly threatens to restart its nuclear program, citing delays in delivery of the promised light-water nuclear power plants.

2001 – George W. Bush becomes U.S. president, and Washington moves further away from Pyongyang. North Korea restarts long-range missile tests. Then comes 9/11.

2002 – President Bush describes North Korea as part of an “axis of evil” (along with Iraq and Iran), while the CIA says it’s been operating a secret uranium enrichment program, probably since the mid-1990s. Pyongyang admits to the program. It then alternates between defending its “right” to have nukes and offering to end its weapons programs in exchange for aid and a nonaggression pact. South Korea, Japan, and the United States cut off oil shipments.

2003 – North Korea says it will withdraw from the NPT, turns off the monitoring equipment at the Yongbyon facility, and expels IAEA inspectors. Talks on the standoff begin in Beijing. At the table: the United States, China, Japan, Russia, South Korea, and North Korea. The talks lead to more talks.

2004 – Two more rounds of six-nation talks come and go. North Korea says the United States is “not interested in making the dialogue fruitful.”

2005 – At a fourth round of six-nation talks, an apparent breakthrough comes. The United States promises not to invade and to respect North Korea’s sovereignty. North Korea says it will dismantle its nuclear programs. The next day, Pyongyang recants, saying it won’t give up anything until it gets a civilian nuclear reactor.

2006 – Defying warnings from the international community, North Korea conducts a series of missile tests on July 4 and 5, including a test of a long-range Taepodong-2 ballistic missile. Three months later, on October 9, North Korea conducts its first-ever nuclear weapons test.

2007 – North Korea agrees to detail all of its nuclear programs and to disable its main nuclear facilities at Yongbyon by the end of this year, with oversight from a U.S.-led team. In exchange for its nuclear stand-down, North Korea stands to receive a million tons of heavy fuel oil, plus a promise from Washington to “begin the process” of delisting it as a state sponsor of terrorism. Leaders of the two Koreas agreed to pursue a peace treaty — more than 50 years after a cease-fire effectively ended the Korean War.

And your authority on ‘sense’ is ….?

#68 Isn’t North Korea coming to the negotiating table because the US is offering massive aid?

No, aid is just the sweetener to save face. They are coming to the negotiating table because the US shut down their source of foreign exchange (in Macao, not Hong Kong as I said earlier).

Better to just ignore them, buy whatever they’ve got to sell and sell them soft drink and music videos.

You’ll have to convince the UN. North Korea has been subject to UN sanctions since it first invaded the South.

But if sanctions keep dictators in power Brendan, how do you explain Mugabe? He replaced a government that was subject to sanctions (Ian Smith’s).

On a moral level, if you do want to help foreigners there are a thousand better ways that invading Iraq.

It is a pointless (and untrue) insult to say that Ron Paul (or the general libertarian position of peace & trade) is isolationist. The libertarian position calls for free voluntary flow of goods, services, money, capital, people etc between countries.

It makes less than no sense for libertarians to get behind perhaps the biggest policy mistake of the last 30 years (Iraq war) and somehow start pretending that government violence works. It doesn’t.

What do you mean by “[dictators] stay in power in spite of [sanctions]“?

Isn’t North Korea coming to the negotiating table because the US is offering massive aid? Is it not possible that this aid will be used to pay off the army to keep the commies in power? They aren’t even willing to give up their nuclear materials. Negotiating on nukes with NK will simply legitimise nukes as a diplomatic bargaining chip. I don’t want war and I don’t think sanctions are the answer either. Better to have NK as part of the international community of trading nations. Vietnam never went this nuts after it went fully commie in 1975, partially because the US began trading with them again 15 years ago.

The US’s reluctance to recognize North Korea and South Korea failing to sign a peace treaty have encouraged the nut jobs in the North to go nuke because no one is talking to them or trading with them except the commie Chinese. Do we really want China to have the ear of the North Korean government exclusively?

Better to just ignore them, buy whatever they’ve got to sell and sell them soft drink and music videos. It may be too late for a laissez faire diplomatic stance, the North Koreans have been cornered into an ever deepening paranoia. A military confrontation may be inevitable, but I would fear the conventional artillery, it would be a scary war indeed.