I have no idea what the map comment means.

I am commenting on the ferocious hatred of Americans expressed in this thread. Of course, there is no excuse for the prejudice. But it is a fascinating topipc.

Any American would INDEED be crazy to go to Australia for any reason.

Unfortunately, some people love America so much that they cannot stomach any criticism of anything American. If they hear a crticism they accuse the person of being “anti-American”. The criticism makes no sense and is used as an excuse not to engage in intellegent debate.

Sukrit was responding to these cries of “anti-American” with the respect they deserve — ie mockery.

Unfortunately, there is some real anti-Americanism out there. But that is NOT the same as criticising American policies. Indeed, it is more anti-American to slavishly defend government intervention.

Australia is not Iran. Buy a map.

You take away my freedom to defend myself, by trying to take my arms, expect a fight.

I hope you are able to address and deal with your bitterness. It is wise for all Americans to stay away from Australia.

There’s no such thing.

Much as there’s no “real libertarian” nation, nor “real socialist” nation, nor even a “real autocracy”.

Political theory isn’t about reality. No ideology can be represented purely.

What is your point?

America, in my opinion, is far less democratic than Australia, which is far less democratic than Germany or New Zealand. Which in turn are less democratic (ignoring the limited franchise) than Ancient Greece.

FPP is less democratic than a bicameral system with IRV and STV. IRV is less democratic than STV (the Senate’s weakness lies in the state representation). IRV is less democratic for single-member electorates than Condorcet. STV is less democratic than absolute proportional representation. PR is less democratic than citizens directly voting on issues.

Political parties like the Australian Democrats are far more democratic than political parties like the Greens, Labor or Liberal.

The Dems did not agree with the GST and a host of other Liberal legislation when they held the balance of power. They moved proportionally more amendments than any other party- improving legislation so it took all views into account. They worked with the elected government instead of just being contrary. I’ve miss them since the coalition got the balance of power. They took all sides into account instead of running in accordance with a single-minded agenda.

Libertarians disparage democracy as tyranny of the masses. But that isn’t what democracy means to me. Democracy is about consensus building and bridging ideological gaps. It’s about discussion between like-minded and opposite-minded groups.

It’s essential to libertarianism, too. The most libertarian society is one without a state. The second most is a democracy where everyone gets a say. Even libertarians differ amongst themselves in deciding “what role should a minimal state have” some libertarians are pro-war, some pro-welfare, some pro-environmental action. The only way the government can legitimately decide which areas it should be involved with is democratically. That is individuals within society each being able to express their opinions.

One of the biggest problems in recent times is the lack of withering away of state arms that are no longer valid. To use a current example- climate change- maybe there is a legitimate need for state action. But if so the state should only retain those powers while climate change is a threat. If legislation is written it is likely to be enacted indefinitely rather than expiring once the need for state action is passed.

That needs to be resolved.

Ultimately however, democracy, true democracy, should be our goal.

On the positive side, one force acting against the socialisation of democracies is the increasingly international world with cheaper transport & communications.

These are pretty key issues. I know that I hark on about the EU but the implications of free movement and free trade engendered by this over grown treaty is not to be snivelled at^. Especially given that the normal federalist inclinations to centralise the military and the tax powers seems to have been put in a straight jacket. For now the EU is more good than bad.

^ not to mention the merits of a common unit of account.

Pommy — Schumpeter predicted that democracy would inevitably lead to the people voting themselves steadily more hand-outs until we had “soft socialism” by stealth. He said this about 80 years ago. I think he was a smart man.

On the positive side, one force acting against the socialisation of democracies is the increasingly international world with cheaper transport & communications. At the moment these two forces seem quite equally poised, and the eventual winner is far from clear to me.