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	<title>Comments on: China will become a procedural democracy</title>
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	<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/</link>
	<description>Australian Libertarian Society Blog</description>
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		<title>By: Jim Fryar</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-81335</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim Fryar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 16:12:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-81335</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[JStone; Democracy is not a requirement for the securing of liberty. While I in no way suggest that what exists in China is liberty, they have opened up their economy to competition and a freer form of trade and have reaped the benefits.

While democracy is more consistent with the concept of liberty the old idea of the benevolent despot, or enlightened absolutism is still relevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JStone; Democracy is not a requirement for the securing of liberty. While I in no way suggest that what exists in China is liberty, they have opened up their economy to competition and a freer form of trade and have reaped the benefits.</p>
<p>While democracy is more consistent with the concept of liberty the old idea of the benevolent despot, or enlightened absolutism is still relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: JStone</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-81333</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JStone]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 14:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-81333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I do not often have the opportunity to debate China and its politics with other Chinese in Australia.

This may sound surprising given that I am married to a Chinese woman, am aquainted with many Chinese, and often have dinner with various Chinese born Australians.

Oddly, I have reluctantly concluded that I have a greater interest in China&#039;s history and its current politics than most Chinese that I come in contact with. This is a shame given the richness of the cultural and political landscape that is China.

I find that even my very own wife lacks any genuine interest in discussing the increasing prominence of China&#039;s actions on the world stage, and what its internal struggle for democracy means for those living in China. She is more interested in events that may impact her directly, such as the value of the yuan or the performance of the Chinese stock market.

There are however a few people I know who do have very interesting views on China, and who are not afraid to express themselves. These people have grown up in China, and so their views are of paticular interest to me.

Having said that I should state from the outset that not only am I an unabashed Sinophile, but that I also appreciate the difficulties that the Chinese government must deal with in order to keep such a large and diverse nation together.

Unlike many of my highly educated colleagues at my work, I do not take the view that democracy above all is the most important goal of a nation. Quality of life must come first, and it is here that I think the cautious but ultimately benelovent approach of the Chinese government shines through.

Make no mistake, I realise that the government has made many serious mistakes and that poverty and corruption is rampant in China, but I am speaking in relative and pragmatic terms, not in ideal terms.

What has really caught me by surprise however has been the general agreement on this point from those least expected.

Why is this so surpising you ask?

Well, these very same Chinese that I refer to were the same Chinese who as students in Australia in the late 1980s effectively defected from China after the Tianemen Square protests. These people had a rabid resentment for the oppressive Chinese government at the time, so much so that they permanently left China as a result.

These same people now praise the current Chinese government and defend its actions.

Surprising yes, but not remarkable given the changes in China over the last 20 years.

Overall, I think that the general political apathy of most Chinese Australians, and the otherwise supportive attitude towards the Chinese government&#039;s iron hold of the vestiges of political power, says a lot about the Chinese, their aspirations, values and their hopes.

It seems that at least for Chinese Australians, health, wealth and happiness is the ultimate goal of life, and although political freedom is a nice to have for most people, it plays little role in the thinking of most Chinese.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do not often have the opportunity to debate China and its politics with other Chinese in Australia.</p>
<p>This may sound surprising given that I am married to a Chinese woman, am aquainted with many Chinese, and often have dinner with various Chinese born Australians.</p>
<p>Oddly, I have reluctantly concluded that I have a greater interest in China&#8217;s history and its current politics than most Chinese that I come in contact with. This is a shame given the richness of the cultural and political landscape that is China.</p>
<p>I find that even my very own wife lacks any genuine interest in discussing the increasing prominence of China&#8217;s actions on the world stage, and what its internal struggle for democracy means for those living in China. She is more interested in events that may impact her directly, such as the value of the yuan or the performance of the Chinese stock market.</p>
<p>There are however a few people I know who do have very interesting views on China, and who are not afraid to express themselves. These people have grown up in China, and so their views are of paticular interest to me.</p>
<p>Having said that I should state from the outset that not only am I an unabashed Sinophile, but that I also appreciate the difficulties that the Chinese government must deal with in order to keep such a large and diverse nation together.</p>
<p>Unlike many of my highly educated colleagues at my work, I do not take the view that democracy above all is the most important goal of a nation. Quality of life must come first, and it is here that I think the cautious but ultimately benelovent approach of the Chinese government shines through.</p>
<p>Make no mistake, I realise that the government has made many serious mistakes and that poverty and corruption is rampant in China, but I am speaking in relative and pragmatic terms, not in ideal terms.</p>
<p>What has really caught me by surprise however has been the general agreement on this point from those least expected.</p>
<p>Why is this so surpising you ask?</p>
<p>Well, these very same Chinese that I refer to were the same Chinese who as students in Australia in the late 1980s effectively defected from China after the Tianemen Square protests. These people had a rabid resentment for the oppressive Chinese government at the time, so much so that they permanently left China as a result.</p>
<p>These same people now praise the current Chinese government and defend its actions.</p>
<p>Surprising yes, but not remarkable given the changes in China over the last 20 years.</p>
<p>Overall, I think that the general political apathy of most Chinese Australians, and the otherwise supportive attitude towards the Chinese government&#8217;s iron hold of the vestiges of political power, says a lot about the Chinese, their aspirations, values and their hopes.</p>
<p>It seems that at least for Chinese Australians, health, wealth and happiness is the ultimate goal of life, and although political freedom is a nice to have for most people, it plays little role in the thinking of most Chinese.</p>
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		<title>By: Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-50126</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Club Troppo &#187; Missing Link Daily]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-50126</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] decision in all the circumstances!Riffing on John Lee&#8217;s book Will China fail?, Sukrit at Thoughts on Freedom thinks China will move to become a procedural democracy, like Singapore.tigtog sings the praises of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] decision in all the circumstances!Riffing on John Lee&#8217;s book Will China fail?, Sukrit at Thoughts on Freedom thinks China will move to become a procedural democracy, like Singapore.tigtog sings the praises of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-48637</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-48637</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In connection with remarks about Singapore . Singapore is not , and until things change dramatically , will in any way be a democracy. In a democracy people do not live in fear of a government or its services , and have freedom of speech, press , and the functioning of the government and its decisions are transparent. Also things like electoral boundaries are not manipulated at the last minute , and the executive and judicairy are separated.
Living in South East Asia I find it very difficult to find a real democracy in the region.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In connection with remarks about Singapore . Singapore is not , and until things change dramatically , will in any way be a democracy. In a democracy people do not live in fear of a government or its services , and have freedom of speech, press , and the functioning of the government and its decisions are transparent. Also things like electoral boundaries are not manipulated at the last minute , and the executive and judicairy are separated.<br />
Living in South East Asia I find it very difficult to find a real democracy in the region.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46496</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Matthew]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 07:26:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46496</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Being a Chinese myself, I do not see a democratic China in 100 years. Even they have a democracy in the future, it will not be like Taiwan or Singapore or the West, more likely like Pakistan or Indonesian kind of democracy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being a Chinese myself, I do not see a democratic China in 100 years. Even they have a democracy in the future, it will not be like Taiwan or Singapore or the West, more likely like Pakistan or Indonesian kind of democracy.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46382</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 02:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46382</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Oh, dear! When they corrected my link to wordpress, they messed up everyone else&#039;s! Is anyone out there?
If you are, what do you think of human rights and trade? Should they be linked together: if so, why and how?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, dear! When they corrected my link to wordpress, they messed up everyone else&#8217;s! Is anyone out there?<br />
If you are, what do you think of human rights and trade? Should they be linked together: if so, why and how?</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46376</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 01:27:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46376</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just think- the Chinese authorities thought it was GOOD that a Western leader could speak Cninese! I&#039;ll bet they wish they could &#039;interpret&#039; his comments now! (I wonder if the Chinese will cancel the Olympics? Better that than have them cancelled because of violence.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just think- the Chinese authorities thought it was GOOD that a Western leader could speak Cninese! I&#8217;ll bet they wish they could &#8216;interpret&#8217; his comments now! (I wonder if the Chinese will cancel the Olympics? Better that than have them cancelled because of violence.)</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46374</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[nicholas gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:30:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re, &#039;Freedom&#039; and China.
I am reading a fascinating book, &quot;The Birth of Plenty&quot;, by William J. Bernstein. He thinks a country needs four features before it can really become wealthy- 1) Property Rights, 2) Scientific Rationalism, 3) Capital Markets, and 4) An Efficient Transport System.
Whilst China seems to have these, point 2 needs free speech, and they don&#039;t have that, and how can you discard old ideas if you can&#039;t mention alternatives? Unless China changes, it won&#039;t meet these requirements.
I certainly recommend the book, because it explains a lot- France under the aristocracy, with their inefficient system of tolls every few miles on Transport, was always going to struggle, for instance.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re, &#8216;Freedom&#8217; and China.<br />
I am reading a fascinating book, &#8220;The Birth of Plenty&#8221;, by William J. Bernstein. He thinks a country needs four features before it can really become wealthy- 1) Property Rights, 2) Scientific Rationalism, 3) Capital Markets, and 4) An Efficient Transport System.<br />
Whilst China seems to have these, point 2 needs free speech, and they don&#8217;t have that, and how can you discard old ideas if you can&#8217;t mention alternatives? Unless China changes, it won&#8217;t meet these requirements.<br />
I certainly recommend the book, because it explains a lot- France under the aristocracy, with their inefficient system of tolls every few miles on Transport, was always going to struggle, for instance.</p>
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		<title>By: Trinifar</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46373</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trinifar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46373</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sukrit writes:

&lt;blockquote&gt;while Lee is correct to note the problems facing China are stark (high rural unemployment, too much capital diverted to inefficient government firms, etc.) I also think the regime is smart enough to know it cannot revert to socialism now that people have gotten used to an adequate standard of living.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That doesn&#039;t really make sense.  High unemployment and a very low standard of living in rural China, which encompasses a large portion of the population, produces a harsh dynamic when coupled with the urbanites who might have gotten used to an &quot;adequate standard of living.&quot;  Nothing like wealth disparity to pull a country apart at the seams, lots of rural poor living a short brutal life while watching city dwellers do much, much better.  Almost a script for trending back to socialism.

Then there&#039;s the environmental issues &#8212; the water tables getting lower, desertification, loss of top soil, water and air pollution &#8212; and still growing population.  Add to that the oil price rise and China&#039;s in real trouble, the kind of trouble that free markets can&#039;t mitigate.  It&#039;s also bound to fate of the US economy which isn&#039;t looking to good these days.

We live in interesting times.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sukrit writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>while Lee is correct to note the problems facing China are stark (high rural unemployment, too much capital diverted to inefficient government firms, etc.) I also think the regime is smart enough to know it cannot revert to socialism now that people have gotten used to an adequate standard of living.</p></blockquote>
<p>That doesn&#8217;t really make sense.  High unemployment and a very low standard of living in rural China, which encompasses a large portion of the population, produces a harsh dynamic when coupled with the urbanites who might have gotten used to an &#8220;adequate standard of living.&#8221;  Nothing like wealth disparity to pull a country apart at the seams, lots of rural poor living a short brutal life while watching city dwellers do much, much better.  Almost a script for trending back to socialism.</p>
<p>Then there&#8217;s the environmental issues &#8212; the water tables getting lower, desertification, loss of top soil, water and air pollution &#8212; and still growing population.  Add to that the oil price rise and China&#8217;s in real trouble, the kind of trouble that free markets can&#8217;t mitigate.  It&#8217;s also bound to fate of the US economy which isn&#8217;t looking to good these days.</p>
<p>We live in interesting times.</p>
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		<title>By: Philip James</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/04/05/china-will-become-a-procedural-democracy/#comment-46344</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Philip James]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 06:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=578#comment-46344</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don’t think we should necessarily be too quick to condemn jail for defamation as a draconian law. After all, Britain and I believe Australia had criminal defamation laws up until approximately forty years ago. In 1994 two people were charged with criminal libel in Canada (max. of two years jail), and, according to Wikipedia, it is still the law in some American states. For those who believe the law of defamation is justified, the current practice of making the offending party pay damages is not always an adequate deterrent to libel. Instead of a large well resourced publishing house what if the muckraker is some barely solvent dole bludger who spends his days spreading gossip on his blog? Or what happens when the ABC of SBS is found liable for defamation? They hardly pass around the hat amongst all the staff. In that case it is always the poor taxpayer footing the bill.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don’t think we should necessarily be too quick to condemn jail for defamation as a draconian law. After all, Britain and I believe Australia had criminal defamation laws up until approximately forty years ago. In 1994 two people were charged with criminal libel in Canada (max. of two years jail), and, according to Wikipedia, it is still the law in some American states. For those who believe the law of defamation is justified, the current practice of making the offending party pay damages is not always an adequate deterrent to libel. Instead of a large well resourced publishing house what if the muckraker is some barely solvent dole bludger who spends his days spreading gossip on his blog? Or what happens when the ABC of SBS is found liable for defamation? They hardly pass around the hat amongst all the staff. In that case it is always the poor taxpayer footing the bill.</p>
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