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	<title>Comments on: A cultural matrix</title>
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	<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/</link>
	<description>Australian Libertarian Society Blog</description>
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		<title>By: meika</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[meika]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 12:18:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[well, the key point is that the biases are not &#039;egalitarian&#039;, &#039;individualist&#039; etc but that the perception of risk is biased, and those quarterings are the result of a process ...

I preferr to think of them fractally anyway, each quarter is itself quartered and so ad infinitum, or at least until a phase change]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>well, the key point is that the biases are not &#8216;egalitarian&#8217;, &#8216;individualist&#8217; etc but that the perception of risk is biased, and those quarterings are the result of a process &#8230;</p>
<p>I preferr to think of them fractally anyway, each quarter is itself quartered and so ad infinitum, or at least until a phase change</p>
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		<title>By: TerjeP (say tay-a)</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TerjeP (say tay-a)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 11:30:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well the link to Cultural Theory of Risk spends a fair bit of time quartering us. Not that I mind the process. I think we learn a lot about ourselves when we see clear patterns that explain differences between people. If anything such quartering processes, that allow me to better understand people, will generally make me more tolerant not less.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well the link to Cultural Theory of Risk spends a fair bit of time quartering us. Not that I mind the process. I think we learn a lot about ourselves when we see clear patterns that explain differences between people. If anything such quartering processes, that allow me to better understand people, will generally make me more tolerant not less.</p>
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		<title>By: meika</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49066</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[meika]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49066</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d just like to re-focus the discussion here. I like the work of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Douglas&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mary Douglas&lt;/a&gt; not because it quarters us, just like any other 2x2 matrix, but because it uses a &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Theory_of_risk&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Cultural Theory of Risk&lt;/a&gt; to explain why four (and not 3 or 5 or 2) are about right in explaining social/cultural artefacts, and why some social practices (celibacy, ascetisism, iconoclasm at one extreme) become associated as a style reflecting/expressing ideals dear to some political movement at a certain time.

The theory explains the social engine of cultural and political change which are not directly dependent on economic factors. It is dependant on an individual&#039;s perception of risk, and how we, as such individuals seek to co-operate together in groups.

It is something quite sophisticated, and something a direct mapping onto other 2x2 matrices completely misses. especially if one fail to notices that that mapping may shift over time as some values become re-aligned with regard their power in expressing/representing a perception of risk (to nature/morality).

In it one can identify one&#039;s own preference, and so, perhaps, realise that other people&#039;s preferences make some sort of sense, and that there is no need to fear them, no requirement to just tolerate them, but appreciate that their preferences are just as necessary as mine.

If only to maintain a pool of responses as situations changes.

I do not fear the madman, only their extremism, their singular desire to wipe out the other perceptions of risk as ever being valid. Fundamentalism is at root based in fear that there is difference at all.

Generally, political 2x2 matrices can act as a map, and allow teams to eye each other off, but these maps do not try to explain how they come about, nor how they change, nor, perhaps, how they require each other to even exist.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d just like to re-focus the discussion here. I like the work of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Douglas" rel="nofollow">Mary Douglas</a> not because it quarters us, just like any other 2&#215;2 matrix, but because it uses a <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Theory_of_risk" rel="nofollow">Cultural Theory of Risk</a> to explain why four (and not 3 or 5 or 2) are about right in explaining social/cultural artefacts, and why some social practices (celibacy, ascetisism, iconoclasm at one extreme) become associated as a style reflecting/expressing ideals dear to some political movement at a certain time.</p>
<p>The theory explains the social engine of cultural and political change which are not directly dependent on economic factors. It is dependant on an individual&#8217;s perception of risk, and how we, as such individuals seek to co-operate together in groups.</p>
<p>It is something quite sophisticated, and something a direct mapping onto other 2&#215;2 matrices completely misses. especially if one fail to notices that that mapping may shift over time as some values become re-aligned with regard their power in expressing/representing a perception of risk (to nature/morality).</p>
<p>In it one can identify one&#8217;s own preference, and so, perhaps, realise that other people&#8217;s preferences make some sort of sense, and that there is no need to fear them, no requirement to just tolerate them, but appreciate that their preferences are just as necessary as mine.</p>
<p>If only to maintain a pool of responses as situations changes.</p>
<p>I do not fear the madman, only their extremism, their singular desire to wipe out the other perceptions of risk as ever being valid. Fundamentalism is at root based in fear that there is difference at all.</p>
<p>Generally, political 2&#215;2 matrices can act as a map, and allow teams to eye each other off, but these maps do not try to explain how they come about, nor how they change, nor, perhaps, how they require each other to even exist.</p>
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		<title>By: Papachango</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49041</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Papachango]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 04:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49041</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah but Terje - a socialist would argue that you can&#039;t be libertarian and egalitarian, as libertarians are inherently individualist (selfish). They would say you have to be socialist to be egalitarian.

Socialists like to maintain the moral high ground of equality for themselves.

My counter to that is that libertarians are egalitarian in that they support the notion of equal opportunity for all (via free markets for e.g.), but accept that we weren&#039;t born equal, and there will be unequal outcomes as a result of people&#039;s abilities.

Socialists, on the other hand beleive in equality by force, regardless of people&#039;s nautural abilities.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah but Terje &#8211; a socialist would argue that you can&#8217;t be libertarian and egalitarian, as libertarians are inherently individualist (selfish). They would say you have to be socialist to be egalitarian.</p>
<p>Socialists like to maintain the moral high ground of equality for themselves.</p>
<p>My counter to that is that libertarians are egalitarian in that they support the notion of equal opportunity for all (via free markets for e.g.), but accept that we weren&#8217;t born equal, and there will be unequal outcomes as a result of people&#8217;s abilities.</p>
<p>Socialists, on the other hand beleive in equality by force, regardless of people&#8217;s nautural abilities.</p>
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		<title>By: Fleeced</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49040</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fleeced]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49040</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree with Papa about fatalism... the way I see it, it isn&#039;t a 2x2 matrix, but a triangle.

At the top point of the triangle, you&#039;d have Authoritarianism; at the bottom left, Egalitarianism; and bottom right, Individualism.  Fatalism, essentially being the absence of the others, would be the centre of the triangle.

Reminds me of the ethical system of the musical &lt;i&gt;Into the Woods&lt;/i&gt;, where we have the ethics of Good, Nice and Right.  This story picks up where all the other fairy tales left off (you didn&#039;t really think they lived happily ever after, did you?)  After Jack&#039;s brutal murder of the giant, the giant&#039;s wife comes for revenge.  She threatens to destroy the village unless the people hand over Jack, which they refuse to do.  The village witch makes the observation of the villagers, &quot;You&#039;re not Good, you&#039;re just Nice!&quot; - and attempts to hand Jack over to the giant, saying &quot;I&#039;m not Good or Nice, I&#039;m just Right&quot;.

&quot;Nice&quot; people don&#039;t make hard moral choices, but do look out for the tribe - as long as it&#039;s their tribe.  In the above story, they ultimately band together and slay the giantess, even though they recognise Jack&#039;s guilt.

&quot;Good&quot; people follow a moral system from an outside authority.  If they existed in the above story, they might want to set up an agreement where the parties recognise each others right to exist, and set in place a procedure of due process to determine Jack&#039;s guilt and any punishment involved.

&quot;Right&quot; people will try to make tough decisions - in the above case to minimise suffering - but aren&#039;t as &quot;personable&quot; in dealing with other people as the Nice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Papa about fatalism&#8230; the way I see it, it isn&#8217;t a 2&#215;2 matrix, but a triangle.</p>
<p>At the top point of the triangle, you&#8217;d have Authoritarianism; at the bottom left, Egalitarianism; and bottom right, Individualism.  Fatalism, essentially being the absence of the others, would be the centre of the triangle.</p>
<p>Reminds me of the ethical system of the musical <i>Into the Woods</i>, where we have the ethics of Good, Nice and Right.  This story picks up where all the other fairy tales left off (you didn&#8217;t really think they lived happily ever after, did you?)  After Jack&#8217;s brutal murder of the giant, the giant&#8217;s wife comes for revenge.  She threatens to destroy the village unless the people hand over Jack, which they refuse to do.  The village witch makes the observation of the villagers, &#8220;You&#8217;re not Good, you&#8217;re just Nice!&#8221; &#8211; and attempts to hand Jack over to the giant, saying &#8220;I&#8217;m not Good or Nice, I&#8217;m just Right&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8220;Nice&#8221; people don&#8217;t make hard moral choices, but do look out for the tribe &#8211; as long as it&#8217;s their tribe.  In the above story, they ultimately band together and slay the giantess, even though they recognise Jack&#8217;s guilt.</p>
<p>&#8220;Good&#8221; people follow a moral system from an outside authority.  If they existed in the above story, they might want to set up an agreement where the parties recognise each others right to exist, and set in place a procedure of due process to determine Jack&#8217;s guilt and any punishment involved.</p>
<p>&#8220;Right&#8221; people will try to make tough decisions &#8211; in the above case to minimise suffering &#8211; but aren&#8217;t as &#8220;personable&#8221; in dealing with other people as the Nice.</p>
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		<title>By: TerjeP</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49039</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TerjeP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 00:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One axis is your cultural affinity towards collective sharing of problems and benefits. The other axis is your affinity towards rules and power structures as a means to solving problems. Culturally I think I&#039;d regard myself as something of an egalitarian even whilst politically being libertarian. Like the egalitarian sterotype in the article I think people should talk to eachother more.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One axis is your cultural affinity towards collective sharing of problems and benefits. The other axis is your affinity towards rules and power structures as a means to solving problems. Culturally I think I&#8217;d regard myself as something of an egalitarian even whilst politically being libertarian. Like the egalitarian sterotype in the article I think people should talk to eachother more.</p>
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		<title>By: Papachango</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2008/06/27/a-cultural-matrix/#comment-49036</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Papachango]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 23:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://alsblog.wordpress.com/?p=714#comment-49036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Inteersting. Who ever came up with that idea must have been a management consultant - they can explain anything in terms of a 2x2 matrix.

Though I prefer the &lt;a&gt;political compass&lt;/a&gt; as a better continuum of political worldwiews.

A couple of issues I have with the cultural matrix:

- If it is 2x2 what do the dimensional axes signify (e.g. on the political compass one axis is your approach to economic management, the other your attitute to stae control vs invididual liberty)

- the diagonal opposites don&#039;t seem to line up. According to the model, hierarchy is the diametric opposite of individualism (libertarianism?), and fatalism is the diametric opposite of egalitariansim.  It doesn&#039;t seen to fit as a grid, rather a list of four possible world views. Who&#039;s to say there aren&#039;t others?

- &quot;fatalism&quot; is really a bit of a nothing worldview. It should be in the middle rather on one extremity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Inteersting. Who ever came up with that idea must have been a management consultant &#8211; they can explain anything in terms of a 2&#215;2 matrix.</p>
<p>Though I prefer the <a>political compass</a> as a better continuum of political worldwiews.</p>
<p>A couple of issues I have with the cultural matrix:</p>
<p>- If it is 2&#215;2 what do the dimensional axes signify (e.g. on the political compass one axis is your approach to economic management, the other your attitute to stae control vs invididual liberty)</p>
<p>- the diagonal opposites don&#8217;t seem to line up. According to the model, hierarchy is the diametric opposite of individualism (libertarianism?), and fatalism is the diametric opposite of egalitariansim.  It doesn&#8217;t seen to fit as a grid, rather a list of four possible world views. Who&#8217;s to say there aren&#8217;t others?</p>
<p>- &#8220;fatalism&#8221; is really a bit of a nothing worldview. It should be in the middle rather on one extremity.</p>
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