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	<title>Comments on: An upper house by sortition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/</link>
	<description>Australian Libertarian Society Blog</description>
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		<title>By: TerjeP</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-100740</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TerjeP]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-100740</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is now a political party in British Columbia promoting this idea:-

http://www.peoplessenate.ca/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is now a political party in British Columbia promoting this idea:-</p>
<p><a href="http://www.peoplessenate.ca/" rel="nofollow">http://www.peoplessenate.ca/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mr King</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-91232</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr King]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Jul 2010 04:49:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-91232</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Do we need a Referendum For A New Democracy?

Are you concerned about the future of democracy? Do you feel democracy is under attack by extreme greed in countries around the world? Are you sick and tired of: living in fear, corporate greed, growing police state, government for the rich, working more but having less? 

Can we use both elections and random selection (in the way we select government officials) to rid democracy of undue influence by extreme wealth and wealth-dominated mass media campaigns?

The world&#039;s first democracy (Athenian democracy, 600 B.C.) used both elections and random selection. Even Aristotle (the cofounder of Western thought) promoted the use random selection as the best way to protect democracy. The idea of randomly selecting (after screening) juries remains from Athenian democracy, but not randomly selecting (after screening) government officials. Why is it used only for individual justice and not also for social justice? Who wins from that? ...the extremely wealthy?

What is the best way to combine elections and random selection to protect democracy in today&#039;s world? Can we use elections as the way to screen candidates, and random selection as the way to do the final selection? Who wins from that? ...the people?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do we need a Referendum For A New Democracy?</p>
<p>Are you concerned about the future of democracy? Do you feel democracy is under attack by extreme greed in countries around the world? Are you sick and tired of: living in fear, corporate greed, growing police state, government for the rich, working more but having less? </p>
<p>Can we use both elections and random selection (in the way we select government officials) to rid democracy of undue influence by extreme wealth and wealth-dominated mass media campaigns?</p>
<p>The world&#8217;s first democracy (Athenian democracy, 600 B.C.) used both elections and random selection. Even Aristotle (the cofounder of Western thought) promoted the use random selection as the best way to protect democracy. The idea of randomly selecting (after screening) juries remains from Athenian democracy, but not randomly selecting (after screening) government officials. Why is it used only for individual justice and not also for social justice? Who wins from that? &#8230;the extremely wealthy?</p>
<p>What is the best way to combine elections and random selection to protect democracy in today&#8217;s world? Can we use elections as the way to screen candidates, and random selection as the way to do the final selection? Who wins from that? &#8230;the people?</p>
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		<title>By: 'Nuke' Gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77486</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA['Nuke' Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77486</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think an elected head of state would be a good idea, especially if we clearly limit it to a referee-type office. Instead of discarding what&#039;s in the Constitution, we could simply add another option. (Section x- OR the Government could ask the high court for a General Election, and for the Governor-General, sometimes also called the Regent, to also be subject to an Australia-wide plebiscite at the same time as this General Election, blather, blather, etc.)
And a good feature of this system is that it would be unique- I don&#039;t know of any other country that has an elected regent. And &#039;Regent&#039;, with the adjective, &#039;Regal&#039;, would allow minimal name changes- change Royal to Regal. Our Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) becomes One&#039;s Regal Australian Air Force (RAAF). That&#039;s minimalism!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think an elected head of state would be a good idea, especially if we clearly limit it to a referee-type office. Instead of discarding what&#8217;s in the Constitution, we could simply add another option. (Section x- OR the Government could ask the high court for a General Election, and for the Governor-General, sometimes also called the Regent, to also be subject to an Australia-wide plebiscite at the same time as this General Election, blather, blather, etc.)<br />
And a good feature of this system is that it would be unique- I don&#8217;t know of any other country that has an elected regent. And &#8216;Regent&#8217;, with the adjective, &#8216;Regal&#8217;, would allow minimal name changes- change Royal to Regal. Our Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) becomes One&#8217;s Regal Australian Air Force (RAAF). That&#8217;s minimalism!</p>
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		<title>By: TerjeP (say tay-a)</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77374</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TerjeP (say tay-a)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77374</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In terms of minimalist reforms I think an elected head of state is a bad idea. It politicises the position and confuses executive responsibility and accountability. I&#039;d rather let each state government nominate one candidate and then appoint one of those candidates using sortition and have them serve for a fixed term of 10 years. I&#039;d make current and former state and federal MPs ineligible for nomination.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In terms of minimalist reforms I think an elected head of state is a bad idea. It politicises the position and confuses executive responsibility and accountability. I&#8217;d rather let each state government nominate one candidate and then appoint one of those candidates using sortition and have them serve for a fixed term of 10 years. I&#8217;d make current and former state and federal MPs ineligible for nomination.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hill</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77367</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77367</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like a Mc Garvie/Irish hybrid. Probably would be popular. Also seems like the Crown is vested in the High court and the electorate.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like a Mc Garvie/Irish hybrid. Probably would be popular. Also seems like the Crown is vested in the High court and the electorate.</p>
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		<title>By: 'Nuke' Gray</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77363</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA['Nuke' Gray]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:16:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77363</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for the Republican debate, if we want a republic with minimal changes to the existing constitution, then have the Governor-general elected at the same time as a Federal General Election, but with no powers of policy. The governor-general would be an elected ombudsman, able to look into any allegation against a member of parliament, and to discharge them from office as they are charged with crimes in court.
The g-g must assent to legislation unless he can prove wrongdoing in a court of law. Also, the reserve powers must be approved by the current high court before the G-G can use them, and only under any terms imposed by the high court.
That would satisfy the public- a popularly-elected official, and the politicians would be happy- a non-policy office. A win all round. And the high court has the powers of the Crown when we are voting for the G-g, who they appoint when he wins office. We call things regal, and keep the references to &#039;Crown&#039;, with the G-g appointing State Governors to their office.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for the Republican debate, if we want a republic with minimal changes to the existing constitution, then have the Governor-general elected at the same time as a Federal General Election, but with no powers of policy. The governor-general would be an elected ombudsman, able to look into any allegation against a member of parliament, and to discharge them from office as they are charged with crimes in court.<br />
The g-g must assent to legislation unless he can prove wrongdoing in a court of law. Also, the reserve powers must be approved by the current high court before the G-G can use them, and only under any terms imposed by the high court.<br />
That would satisfy the public- a popularly-elected official, and the politicians would be happy- a non-policy office. A win all round. And the high court has the powers of the Crown when we are voting for the G-g, who they appoint when he wins office. We call things regal, and keep the references to &#8216;Crown&#8217;, with the G-g appointing State Governors to their office.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hill</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77316</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 08:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77316</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About what I ideas I&#039;ve come up with previously.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About what I ideas I&#8217;ve come up with previously.</p>
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		<title>By: TerjeP (say tay-a)</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77302</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[TerjeP (say tay-a)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 06:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sortition makes you think more???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sortition makes you think more???</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mark Hill</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77294</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:16:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[...5 Senators from each of the 20 States...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;5 Senators from each of the 20 States&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Hill</title>
		<link>http://blog.libertarian.org.au/2009/10/30/an-upper-house-by-sortition/#comment-77293</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Hill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 05:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.libertarian.org.au/?p=3228#comment-77293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think libertarians have quite a bit to add to the republican debate. George William&#039;s recent article in the SMH is quite boring.

Look at the way the New England States in the US are run. Executive Councils, separate to the legislature, can veto Gubernatorial decisions. Town meetings make local laws and decisions and selectmen act as executives and local judicial officers are elected elsewhere in the union. New Hampshire and Vermont are particularly interesting.

I&#039;m open to a Presidential Republic by direct preferential election, a unicameral Hare Clark PR legislature and judicial panels elected by approval voting, at all levels, in the context of a looser Federation with State, Federal, Local and regions for those who want to eliminate a tier of Government (City-States would be ideal candidates), within a loose Federation with other Pacific nations - the President appoints national chancellors to administer the law like junior VPs (they would rank under the VP in succession).  The discussion we had here before on charter cities is worth looking at again. So here you&#039;d have four levels of Government with a tier removed and allow people to remove another if they liked, along with citizen&#039;s referenda and a strong bill of rights. 

I had another idea once of solving the republic debate by eliminating the head of state altogether, and giving reserve powers to the judiciary, senate, exec and parliament collectively. This also called for a bill of rights, citizen&#039;s referenda, judicial appointments committees, tenure but fixed terms for judicial officers and four fixed year terms for both houses, within the current federal structure. My preference would be for more States, no Ministers in the Senate and to Federally recognise shires. I would also want about 5 Senators from 20 States, 200 MHRs. The Senate ticket would be a national ticket but the votes would be weighted to give equal representation, and a simple PR list system could be used. I don&#039;t know if Hare Clark PR or single member preferential voting would be the best for the House in this case.

Here is some discussion:

http://www.catallaxyfiles.com/blog/?p=6493

Here is what I think of a bill of rights:

I think we need an amendment, in the context of the original intent ensuring i) States/Shires respect rights as well as Commonwealth ii) explictly list explicit constitutional rights iii) explictly expand property rights in light of the Kelo case iv) explicitly list implicit rights v) explicitly list now typically lost common law rights and finally vi) a TABOR (relates to finance and trade powers already present).

I actually don&#039;t mind the sortition idea but in the context of what I&#039;ve proposed, it makes me think more. In a Presidential system, you&#039;d virtually need to keep bicameralism.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think libertarians have quite a bit to add to the republican debate. George William&#8217;s recent article in the SMH is quite boring.</p>
<p>Look at the way the New England States in the US are run. Executive Councils, separate to the legislature, can veto Gubernatorial decisions. Town meetings make local laws and decisions and selectmen act as executives and local judicial officers are elected elsewhere in the union. New Hampshire and Vermont are particularly interesting.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m open to a Presidential Republic by direct preferential election, a unicameral Hare Clark PR legislature and judicial panels elected by approval voting, at all levels, in the context of a looser Federation with State, Federal, Local and regions for those who want to eliminate a tier of Government (City-States would be ideal candidates), within a loose Federation with other Pacific nations &#8211; the President appoints national chancellors to administer the law like junior VPs (they would rank under the VP in succession).  The discussion we had here before on charter cities is worth looking at again. So here you&#8217;d have four levels of Government with a tier removed and allow people to remove another if they liked, along with citizen&#8217;s referenda and a strong bill of rights. </p>
<p>I had another idea once of solving the republic debate by eliminating the head of state altogether, and giving reserve powers to the judiciary, senate, exec and parliament collectively. This also called for a bill of rights, citizen&#8217;s referenda, judicial appointments committees, tenure but fixed terms for judicial officers and four fixed year terms for both houses, within the current federal structure. My preference would be for more States, no Ministers in the Senate and to Federally recognise shires. I would also want about 5 Senators from 20 States, 200 MHRs. The Senate ticket would be a national ticket but the votes would be weighted to give equal representation, and a simple PR list system could be used. I don&#8217;t know if Hare Clark PR or single member preferential voting would be the best for the House in this case.</p>
<p>Here is some discussion:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.catallaxyfiles.com/blog/?p=6493" rel="nofollow">http://www.catallaxyfiles.com/blog/?p=6493</a></p>
<p>Here is what I think of a bill of rights:</p>
<p>I think we need an amendment, in the context of the original intent ensuring i) States/Shires respect rights as well as Commonwealth ii) explictly list explicit constitutional rights iii) explictly expand property rights in light of the Kelo case iv) explicitly list implicit rights v) explicitly list now typically lost common law rights and finally vi) a TABOR (relates to finance and trade powers already present).</p>
<p>I actually don&#8217;t mind the sortition idea but in the context of what I&#8217;ve proposed, it makes me think more. In a Presidential system, you&#8217;d virtually need to keep bicameralism.</p>
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